Laci Mosley picks up the cellphone mid-fitting, as she preps for a present she will’t inform me about. “Do you need to do that one other time?” I ask. “Sorry, only a sec,” she says, then asks if we are able to reschedule in an hour. I half hope that she’ll ghost me (that is an article about scams, in any case) however she doesn’t, which is in the end fortunate. She could be busy jetting between Hollywood units and podcast studios, however not too busy to placed on Louboutins and speak about her all-time favourite cons.
Mosley is the LA-based actor and comic behind the podcast , the place she chats with fellow comedy writers about “scams, cons, robberies, and fraud” — phrases that additionally double as her theme tune. The present’s latest deep dives embody Lou Pearlman, a document producer turned convicted Ponzi schemer; Jessica Krug, a white professor who posed as Black; and Seth Lookhart, a hoverboard-riding dentist in the end convicted of Medicaid fraud.
Every episode opens with a “what’s sizzling in fraud” section, the place a listener sends Mosley a latest con, which she dissects together with her visitor. However the finest elements are the scam-adjacent digressions: In an episode about Instagram grifter Caroline Calloway, a listener describes a former co-worker’s Tinder con, which started with him swiping proper on everybody, so as to solid a large internet. “I imply truthfully, love is a numbers sport,” Mosley says, pausing from studying the be aware. “I deal with it like the on line casino … I used to not date in any respect.” Her visitor, actor Jameela Jamil, responds: “I imply I didn’t have my first kiss till I used to be 21, so I really feel prefer it’s okay to only transfer at your personal tempo. Why did you not date?” Mosley quips: “I used to be busy. I used to be attempting to get to the cash.”
The remainder of the present is devoted to “historic hoodwinks” the place Mosley walks her visitor by means of the twists and turns of a world-class fraud, from the school admissions scandal to a devious romance scheme. Sharilyn Vera, her analysis assistant, compiles detailed notes, which Mosley reads off throughout the section. This half is all improv — Mosley doesn’t take a look at the notes forward of time, which makes her reactions even funnier.
What units Mosley aside is that she doesn’t look down on rip-off artists. In truth, she says there’s so much that may be realized from fraudsters. “I derive quite a lot of confidence from studying from scammers and studying about scammers,” she says. “I imply, I don’t need to do full-time crime, however at the similar time, I like to see it.”
On Monday, she’s taking her podcast to Crew Coco, Conan O’Brien’s podcast and manufacturing firm. She’s additionally now a commentator on which airs Wednesdays at 10PM ET on ABC.
I needed to start out with the query you ask your company — what’s your relationship with scams? Why do you discover them fascinating?
Laci Mosley: It sort of goes hand in hand with my life. I used to go to nightclubs with my girlfriends and we might at all times discover methods to sneak into VIP. One time we have been at this actually unique get together. Beyoncé was there, Jay-Z was there, all these folks have been there and we couldn’t get into the VIP part. And so, one among my homegirls noticed some cups and she or he was like, “Yo, we’re already wearing black. Let’s simply maintain these cups over our head and act like we’re getting into to serve the company.” So we put the cups over our head and was like, “Okay.” And so they allow us to by means of.
Getting over was at all times enjoyable for me. I simply love individuals who try this. There’s one thing about con artists, they’ve this confidence, normally to the level of delusion: even should you don’t belong there, feeling such as you belong there and exhibiting folks you belong there. That’s all you really want in life.
I don’t need to do full-time crime, however at the similar time, I like to see it. I like to look at folks.
Yeah, there’s one thing very relatable about scammers. I don’t assume I’ve the confidence to do it, however I like it and perceive the impulse.
Yeah. However I believe all of us can. I believe all of us can get to the level the place we’ve got the confidence of scammers, as a result of that’s actually what separates lots of people who’re wildly profitable from different folks. We’re at all times lied to by capitalism. We’re lied to on this means of like, “These individuals who have greater than you, who’ve extra money or wealth, they’re simply extra particular than you. They’ve one thing you don’t.” And that’s merely not the reality. They simply have the confidence to behave like they have been purported to be all over the place that they have been purported to be. And even when they didn’t have the instruments or the info or the language, they only picked it up alongside the means. So I believe it’s nearly feeling such as you deserve every thing.
And we dwell in a system that teaches us that we don’t, as a result of that’s how they oppress folks. So I like doing this present, too, as a result of I prefer to liberate folks from capitalism. I at all times say, like, every thing is made up: names, guidelines, legal guidelines. They alter all the time.
I imply, take a look at weed. There are such a lot of folks rotting in jail over minor drug offenses for marijuana, and now you possibly can go to the weed Apple Retailer and purchase weed in a means that appears so technologically superior and funky. All the things’s made up. So I simply need folks to not really feel confined by guidelines and [laughs] legal guidelines.
Do you will have a philosophy round what separates a scam-scam from say, an unjust authorized system?
I believe that they’re very a lot the similar. It’s simply that one has a special vibe to us. Like the rip-off of authority and energy is that all of us need to empirically observe these guidelines, proper? All of us have to stick to those issues as a result of they’re regulation. When genuinely, it’s simply anyone who informed you that. All these legal guidelines have been made by folks and all these scams have been made by folks.
So for me, they sort of stroll the similar line. It’s simply that one is considered in another way than the different. And I imply this extra with scams which might be conning the system. Like should you’re conning a person individual on the avenue, then that’s a very totally different factor than the authorities rip-off. However should you’re getting over on main firms and the authorities, you’re mainly doing what they do daily. I imply, you take a look at any billionaire, you’ll discover useless our bodies, you’ll discover tax evasion. Jeff Bezos be cleansing up these Amazon murders like next-day transport!
I suppose to extra clearly reply your query, I believe that there are various kinds of rip-off industries, however I do assume that the fundamentals of scams are so just like the society that we’ve constructed and the way it works. You already know what I imply? ‘Trigger it was arrange by folks in order that they might rip-off everyone else. The founding fathers made a rustic that might be a utopia for straight white males. And it nonetheless just about is.
Do you will have a favourite rip-off that you simply’ve coated in the previous yr? It seems like this was a yr filled with scams.
It was. My favourite rip-off continues to be the first episode of the present. And that’s Anna Delvey with Paul F. Tompkins. They’re doing a TV present about her on Netflix. [Disclosure: The show is based on an article by Jessica Pressler for New York Magazine, which shares a parent company, Vox Media, with The Verge.]
And the purpose I like Anna Delvey a lot is as a result of not solely did she trust, she had props, she had actors, she had a coach buddy, and she or he made it appear like she was paying him. After which past that in courtroom, when she was being sentenced, she actually mentioned to the choose in the courtroom, she mentioned, “I’m not a superb individual.” And I assumed, wow, how liberating.
Not that I need folks to be dangerous or no matter, however simply to see anyone who’s so fricking trustworthy with themselves and what they’re about, versus everybody pretending to be good folks. Like Donald Trump’s not a superb individual. And I might like it if he was identical to, “I’m a nasty man.” We might get someplace with that.
I believe she’s out now, additionally. She simply obtained early parole.
Actually? Oh my god, I’m so joyful for her.
How do you select which scams to cowl?
It is a true con present. So it’s like true crime, besides I actually don’t prefer to cowl good women getting murdered or no matter. I attempt to give folks a break from that. So I strive to decide on rip-off artists that I can root for, for the most half. Now generally the rip-off is so good that I’ve to cowl it, however I’ll be like, “Okay, I don’t like this man. He’s a nasty man.” Like for instance, Lou Pearlman. Lou Pearlman was a hilarious scammer. He was additionally an terrible human being. So I’ll make that distinction. However I like to focus on scammers that I actually like over dastardly folks.
After which additionally one thing that’s enjoyable. I like enjoyable particulars. I like a wild one who’s doing quite a lot of loopy shit.
After which like, who’re they scamming? I attempt to keep away from stuff that feels such as you’re a predator. However generally we do need to cowl individuals who have been duped. Love relationships and stuff like that. So, yeah. However I search for stuff that’s enjoyable, nonviolent, and only a good-ass time.
That’s one among my favourite issues about your present — you root for the scammer in a subversive means. We don’t at all times see scammers coated in that mild.
Typically I watch exhibits the place they’re attempting to catch the scammers and it simply feels not enjoyable. Trigger it’s like, “You’re the hater, you’re the hater man that all of us… we don’t such as you.”
I delight myself in attempting to be variety and discover the good in folks. Particularly if I really feel like they haven’t accomplished something that’s oppressive or flawed to different folks.
One in all the issues that made me actually joyful was I had one among the scammers that I coated for “Scammer of the Week,” this rapper Chad Focus. He was shopping for billboards and all these items together with his firm bank card to advertise his rap album and his music was really sort of good. And we performed a few of it on the present and when he obtained out of jail, he emailed me and was like, “Thanks for the shout out.”
I really feel like either side might hearken to your present and really feel understood — the scammer and the sufferer.
Proper. And now that doesn’t at all times occur. We did have a Twitter battle with Caroline Calloway.
She doesn’t seem to be a real scammer to me, although…
Oh, she is.
She simply got here out with a ebook known as Scammer after which had everybody preorder it and by no means mailed it. It nonetheless hasn’t come out and she or he stopped posting all that.
Okay, I take that again.
She’s a real artist. Oh my god, she’s one among my favorites.
Are you able to inform me a bit extra about the Scam Goddess group? I do know you’re employed intently with a analysis assistant.
So, Sharilyn Vera is my analysis assistant and she or he’s improbable. Chelsea Jacobson is my producer. Marina Paiz is my engineer. Now we have an all-female group. We’re all girls. We’re fairly various, which is nice as a result of Chelsea is Jewish. And for some purpose, there’s at all times one thing… like, for instance, I mentioned that Anne Frank was the most well-known Jewish lady and I used to be like, is that this problematic? I didn’t imply it in a nasty means. And so we’ve got enjoyable conversations like that.
I hardly ever learn the episodes beforehand as a result of I love to do improv on the total episode. And it’s simply extra enjoyable and contemporary for me if I’ve not seen it.
At first, the individuals who will come and hearken to this present are like, “Laci doesn’t learn these beforehand?” After which they get used to us. I need folks to really feel like we’re on a journey collectively. And we’re studying about the individual collectively. And the solely time I believe it’s even apparent that I haven’t learn one is Lou Pearlman. We severely absolutely didn’t know that he died. And I used to be speaking about him in current tense, I used to be like, “I hope they’re beating your ass, Lou.” After which I used to be like, “Lou useless?”
You latterly introduced some huge information — Scam Goddess is becoming a member of Crew Coco [Conan O’Brien’s podcast and production studio]. How did you resolve to deliver your present there?
I made a decision to affix Crew Coco as a result of I’ve at all times admired Conan O’Brien’s work and when he took an curiosity in my present, I noticed a chance to develop and be taught from one among the finest to ever do it. His group is so enthusiastic and hardworking and the expertise has been great. Crew Coco produces Scam Goddess alongside Earwolf now, and I couldn’t think about a greater state of affairs.
I’m additionally a speaking head on the new ABC collection The Con hosted by Whoopi Goldberg. It was my first shoot throughout COVID and my first time being a guide on a documentary-style present. I really feel like I scammed my means into being an skilled, however I’ve additionally simply realized so much about con artists finding out them for years. I’m having quite a lot of enjoyable with this present and it’s rising in methods I actually didn’t fathom. It makes me so curious and excited for what’s to come back and extremely grateful for every thing I’ve skilled.
Do you will have any rip-off predictions for what forms of schemes we’d see extra of in the future?
My fraud forecast is, you’re going to see much more interpersonal scams. And what I imply by that’s folks reaching out on a one-on-one particular person foundation. Both with, like, “Hey, I’ve this chance so that you can become profitable actually simply from house,” or, “Hey, I do know you’re working from house and I’m out of your payroll division and I would like this info,” or it’s coming through textual content message or social media. That has gotten very giant on the rip-off entrance, too. So that you’re on Fb and somebody’s inviting you to the “circle of gold,” and that’s a pyramid scheme. Even relationship apps, individuals are getting DMs which might be like, “Hey, I misplaced this cash or I simply want this cash for the taxes and costs, after which I’ll ship you again your portion.”
Why do you assume 2020 was such an enormous yr on the rip-off beat? Did it really feel that option to you?
I believe 2020 was an amazing yr for scams and for scammers as a result of that is the time the place I believe everybody throughout the USA realized that every thing we fucking knew about our authorities was a rip-off. They’ve been mendacity to us. They don’t seem to be serving to us. In a time the place everybody wanted a stimulus, there was just one examine that went out. You already know what I imply? Outdoors of unemployment, we’re seeing that you simply’ve been paying taxes, you’ve been exhibiting up, you’ve been doing all your half, so the place’s your authorities? Not right here, proper?
I believe that this actually opened everybody’s eyes to how a lot we’ve allowed ourselves to be scammed by authority and by people who find themselves not caring for the finest pursuits of the nation. It’s been an exquisite yr for us to take capitalism’s boot and simply loosen it on the neck a bit bit, you recognize what I imply? It’s extra like a toe now. It’s extra of a stiletto. So I believe that’s actually liberating.
This interview has been edited for readability and size.